Interview with Spike Lee

INTERVIEWER: No, I've just seen the previews of it, and it looks terrific.

SPIKE LEE: How much time do you need?

INTERVIEWER: To see it?

SPIKE LEE: No, no, no...

INTERVIEWER: [CHUCKLES] Oh, I would say 20-30 minutes at the most.

SPIKE LEE: Are you ready to do it now?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, we could.

SPIKE LEE: Okay.

INTERVIEWER: I'd like to let you call the shots on this interview. I see it breaking down into two categories. One is - for our purposes in the magazine is the technology. Using digital technology as a tool to lower budgets or make it easier to get into places you couldn't get into before.

SPIKE LEE: Okay.

INTERVIEWER: The other half might be philosophical from a director's point of view. That's an option for you if you want to go into that. I tried to talk to my editor and say, you know, we're probably going to be working with two different kinds of producer-directors here: the ones that have already made it in Hollywood and are using this medium as some sort of extraordinary device, different from what they normally do, which would be 35 millimeter film; or we're going to be working with young guys breaking into the business.

And the last time I spoke to you was on an airplane when you just broke into the business. [CHUCKLES] We could probably reflect on that time. But I'm kind of curious as to what your motivations where, both business-wise, and probably more on a deeper level. 'Cause I sensed a very deep intent in "Kings of Comedy," and maybe I was just misreading it. But if it was there I'd certainly like to write about it.

SPIKE LEE: Okay.

INTERVIEWER: So there we have the two - which one do you want to do first?

SPIKE LEE: Well, let me start from the beginning. You ready?

INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yeah.

SPIKE LEE: Malik Said shot for me "Girl Six." And we were thinking about that film - it was Malik's idea to shoot this film completely in video. And this was like four-five - whenever that film came out, the year before that - we were thinking about shooting it completely in video. Back then I said, Malik, no, you're crazy.

And what we did was - for all the scenes in the film where you see the male phone sex callers, we shot those scenes in video.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I noticed that.

SPIKE LEE: So I mean we started doing that way back then. Chronological speaking, "Bamboozle" was shot before the original "Kings of Comedy."

INTERVIEWER: Oh, interesting.

SPIKE LEE: Ellen I think is one of the best director-photographers working today. Ellen Kiris. She shot for me, "Four Little Girls," the documentary; shot for me, "Summer of Sam," and a ton of commercials and music videos.

And since this film is somewhat about televisions, we felt that shooting it on video might be the way to go. So once we decided that, it still came down to what format. Beta we felt looked too much like video. And we looked around, and we liked the look of Celebration.

INTERVIEWER: Ah, interesting that you should say that.

SPIKE LEE: And we looked at other stuff. And we decided that we wanted to shoot it on the small - that Sony VX 1000 camera. And we did a lot of research. We also looked at that Canon camera, too.

INTERVIEWER: The XL-1.

SPIKE LEE: Right. And then we did our research and saw that we'd better shoot it in Pal. So we chose to shoot it in Pal with the VX-1000. And there are a couple of shots where we used the real little one.

INTERVIEWER: The smaller one than the VX-1000?

SPIKE LEE: Yeah, the one that fits in your hand. The PC-10 I think it's called.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

SPIKE LEE: And so at the same time, besides the aesthetics, it was also a fiscal decision, too.

INTERVIEWER: Exactly.

SPIKE LEE: "Bamboozled" was done for under $10 million - not a lot of money. But we needed a lot of setups. We need to be covered. And with the flexibility of these little cameras, we were able to run and gun. (?) One day we had like 150 setups.

INTERVIEWER: Wow.

SPIKE LEE: A lot of times, even though we might have three or four operators, we had, you know, 15 cameras rolling. So we would just lock a camera off, and run it.

INTERVIEWER: Now you're talking about "Bamboozled" in this case or...?

SPIKE LEE: "Bamboozled."

INTERVIEWER: What was "Bamboozled" shot with?

SPIKE LEE: That's what I'm talking about.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, you're talking about this being shot with...

SPIKE LEE: [OVERLAPPING] Yeah, that's why I said chronological order.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, I'm sorry.

SPIKE LEE: And we were amazed at what we were getting. We used Swiss Effects, which is in Zurich, Switzerland, to do blow-ups.

INTERVIEWER: For doing the blow-ups, yeah.

SPIKE LEE: And they did the blow-up for "Bamboozled," too. And so after having that great experience with "Bamboozled," when I got the call to direct "Kings of Comedy" I said - again, it was not a lot of money, it's a concert film, two consecutive nights, and we needed coverage.

I looked at good and bad, and great concert films. "Richard Pryor Live on Sunset Strip," "Eddie Murphy Raw," stuff like that.

INTERVIEWER: Those were the best, right?

SPIKE LEE: They're the best, but as far as cinema's concerned, we felt - we knew we could improve on the filmmaking on those two films. You know, no disrespect to the genius of Eddie Murphy and Richard Pryor, but as far as the filmmaking was concerned we knew we could do better than that.

Number one, we wanted the audience to be a part of the film. And doing that we had to dedicate cameras to the audience. We also made a rule that when we cut to an audience member laughing, it had to be a real cut.

INTERVIEWER: At that time.

SPIKE LEE: At that time.

INTERVIEWER: Interesting. So you're following the Celebration rules more or less.

SPIKE LEE: Yes. Because I just felt so many times you're watching those shows, and they cut to the audience - it looks fake. The reason why it looks fake is because they're not laughing at that joke.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I noticed you also managed to get some rather realistic sound from that. You were miking them right there, too, right?

SPIKE LEE: Yes, yes. That's another thing, too. We really felt that the filmmaking of those films could be improved on, so we really spent a lot of time with the sound, and had a substantial mix. So you could hear the audience members.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, the background sound of the laughter seems to go away, and you're there sitting in the seat next to them. You also had a shot early on in the film - it looked like the cameraman was actually seated in a seat, and you could see the heads of the people in front of them, like you were looking through the heads.

SPIKE LEE: Yeah, we had three cameras that were dedicated to the audience. They were just roaming around, and their job - if one of the guys started talking about somebody, it was their job to have that camera on that person, or there'd be hell to pay.

INTERVIEWER: Interesting. So, I also notice that you seem to use a lower resolution camera on the documentary elements - the snapshots of the audience earlier on in their different outfits, and then where the kings are playing cards and outside - exteriors. Was that an intentional kind of separation?

SPIKE LEE: No, that was really - I mean those are only the cameras that we could break away from...

INTERVIEWER: I see.

SPIKE LEE: And we can establish setups and so...

INTERVIEWER: It was a logistical decision.

SPIKE LEE: Logistical.

INTERVIEWER: It looked stylistic, though. It worked - for me it was like, you know, here you are seeing the show, and now we're going backstage, or we're going into the personal lives of these people.

SPIKE LEE: Well, the goal for us, the filmmakers, was for the audience, the theatre goers, the people who see the film in the theatres, to think that they were actually there on one of those two nights when we taped the show. We wanted them to be a part of it, and feel they were right there in the first row.

INTERVIEWER: So now, "Bamboozled" was shot first. I imagine you went into editing, and then shot "Kings," right?

SPIKE LEE: Right. We shot "Kings of Comedy" in March. March of 2000. We shot the 17th and 18th of March. And "Bamboozled" was shot... Hmm... We started September 27th - we had an eight week shoot.

INTERVIEWER: Tell me a bit about...

SPIKE LEE: [OVERLAPPING] We went to November 12th.

INTERVIEWER: To November 12th? Tell me a bit about the synopsis of "Bamboozled." What can I write about the storyline?

SPIKE LEE: "Bamboozled" is a satire, and it's starring Damon Wayans, Jada Pinkett Smith, Savion Glover, Tommy Davidson, Michael Rappaport. And it's about the media, about television, about film.

INTERVIEWER: It's kind of like a "Network," 'cause you even used...?

SPIKE LEE: Well, "Network" - and even more so, Kazan's film, "A Face in the Crowd," were the inspiration for this. And Damon Wayans plays a writer, Pierre de la Qua, who's trying to get fired, comes up with the most racist, offensive script he could think of, and it becomes a number one hit. Sort of like what happened in "The Producers," the Mel Brooks film with Zero Mostel and Gene Wilder.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, right.

SPIKE LEE: And we see the consequences of that action.

INTERVIEWER: For a minute I'm going to slip into the philosophical side, 'cause I think it's a good time to do it. I've been seeing a progression of your films chronologically as - I don't know, you see to be - you've obviously picked up a black audience. But with the transition from, say -- I would say at the point of "School Daze," and then moving into "Do the Right Thing," you started to attract, for me, a broader audience.

SPIKE LEE: I would have to... I don't really think that you can make a... If you look at it, many more white moviegoers so "She's [UNINTEL]" than saw "School Daze."

INTERVIEWER: Really?

SPIKE LEE: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: Interesting.

SPIKE LEE: "She's [UNINTEL]" was like 50/50. That was really an art house hit. That was strictly art house. That film, when it opened it was only playing at one theatre in the United States of America, the Cinema Studio, on 66th and Broadway.

INTERVIEWER: Interesting.

SPIKE LEE: Before the theatre got torn down. It was like 50/50.

INTERVIEWER: Then "School Daze" backed off?

SPIKE LEE: Well, "School Daze" takes place at [UNINTEL] black college, so there was - so, it dropped after that. But I really think it depends on what the film is, who comes.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I mean to me, I saw "School Daze," I wept for about a half an hour after I saw, 'cause I realized what I thought I knew I didn't know anything about. And it just like blew me away. I mean I started categorizing my black friends, and then I started categorizing myself, and I realized that I was a wanna-be. I was a wanna-be white on a different level, you know? Even talking to you now it's given me emotion - you know, I said, wow, this guy's got something here that I just can't fathom, you know.

And then I found it easier - I found it more palatable, or maybe easier to take when you did "Do the Right Thing."

SPIKE LEE: Palatable than what film?

INTERVIEWER: Palatable than - than "School Daze." I thought, well, here's a mix...

SPIKE LEE: [OVERLAPPING] Well, I can understand that, because there are white actors in "Do the Right Thing."

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I mean I lived in that neighborhood - in fact, I thought you shot that pretty close to Hoyts Kimmerhorn (?) subway stop, where I lived for 12 years. And I was a landlord down there, I knew that life. And that would mean, okay, this is kind of like - I think white audiences will buy this film, this is great. And then "Summer of Sam" was even more into the mixed demographic.

SPIKE LEE: But there are like nine - there are twelve films in between...

INTERVIEWER: Right. But I'm looking at these as points. "Girl Six," you know - I don't know if you can draw a straight line, it's not completely academic. (?)

SPIKE LEE: [OVERLAPPING] Exactly.

INTERVIEWER: But with "Kings of Comedy" I saw - I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but this looked like you said, okay, I've done all this work, and now I want to sum it up in some simple statement. Like I want to write a little poem here that says everything that I've done so far.

SPIKE LEE: Mmm, I don't think that's true.

INTERVIEWER: No?

SPIKE LEE: No, number one, I had really nothing to do with the original "Kings of Comedy." I was a director for hire.

INTERVIEWER: There wasn't any intricate editing going in there, that you were selecting specific...?

SPIKE LEE: Oh, I mean I was doing - I didn't take any shorts because I didn't generate the project, but - I was - my main goal was to serve the four guys. They came to me along with Walter Latham and David Gale, from MTV Pictures. This had already been a successful tour.

INTERVIEWER: I see.

SPIKE LEE: The most successful comedy tour ever - it grossed $39 million over two years.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

SPIKE LEE: So, I would look like a Mamaluke (?) if I do a film that's far inferior to the concert show. So I had to, you know, try to step up and... [OVERLAPPING] You know, try to reach that high standard they established already.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Maybe the quality of the product was showing through and I was seeing that, too. But I mean there's a scene - I can't remember who the comic was, I think it was Steve Harvey when he comes out, and he gets the audience to stand up...

SPIKE LEE: Well, you know, all that material, that's their stuff, you know? So when they're onstage there's nothing I could tell them.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, right, right.

SPIKE LEE: You know, I have to shape and mold, and decide what goes and what goes out. And there'll be a lot of stuff that's going to come out on the DID.

INTERVIEWER: That's interesting. You'll put that back in?

SPIKE LEE: Yeah, I'm going to put that back in.

INTERVIEWER: Interesting. The structure was just stunning. When you look out at that audience, and I see it as a white guy, I'm saying, there's a culture. There are people standing up there that all have the same thoughts, they've lived through the same things, they smile at the same time. And when you say the word love to them, they have the same exact connotation of it.

And that's powerful. I mean when you see all those people standing up there... I think it was kind of cool, because they are - they embody old school. And it was a celebration of old school.

SPIKE LEE: I think you hit it on the nose. And that's why they were able to gross $39 million over two years...

INTERVIEWER: That's why, huh?

SPIKE LEE: ...without any [OVERLAPPING] - from mainstream. You know, when they went across the country, they only did like $10 thousand worth of promos on the radio... [OVERLAPPING] No TV, you know?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, it wasn't even a blip on the radar screen...

SPIKE LEE: [OVERLAPPING] Even when they came to the Garden here they weren't getting reviewed. So it was really like... I really think it shows that people, when they like something they don't need validation from anybody else to validate who they are, what they like, or their worth. You know, like this is us, we love this. And I don't care if TV Guide, or Entertainment Weekly, or The New York Times don't review it. We don't give a fuck, you know? We love it, and we're going to celebrate it.

INTERVIEWER: That's an interesting point - to what extent does validation drive all of us? The urge to validate our experience, huh?

SPIKE LEE: I think it's a drive in all of us, I'm not going to lie. But when you get consistently turned down or - or belittled, then you, of course, become defensive and say, look, fuck you, you know?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah.

SPIKE LEE: And we're just going to do our thing.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, and that makes it all the more valid internally.

SPIKE LEE: Exactly. Walter Latham, the producer, the visionary who thought of this idea, it took him a long time to convince the studios to make this film, you know? They all said, we don't know who these guys are - even though three of them had TV shows running, but I guess they don't watch UPN or the WB.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, right.

SPIKE LEE: But finally, MTV, David Gale, Van Tofler saw it, they bought into it, and then Paramount came in and got the distribution rights. So this film is going to end up grossing between $40-45 million, it's going to do a ton of business in DVD - you know, when DVD and VHS [OVERLAPPING] ..comes out.
And it only cost $3 million.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

SPIKE LEE: So, because of people's blinding ignorance, they lost money for their studio because - just because something that they don't know or never heard of, that means it's not valid, and they lost a great business opportunity. So I hope it's a lesson to all those studio heads that turned down this film.

INTERVIEWER: Are you seeing a reaction from that yet, in the calls that come to you for the project?

SPIKE LEE: Well, I mean not from people who turned it down, but I know what the scuttlebutt is, and people are kicking themselves. This is a big hit.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. How does this new technology with this lower budgetary framework allow you to take bigger risks? Or to take smaller risks, actually?

SPIKE LEE: We could not have shot "Bamboozled" on film the way I wanted to with the budget we had. So, it was imperative to shoot it this way. But I think that what this technology is going to do is make this whole media thing more democratic. That anybody could buy a digital camera now, buy some tape, and make a film.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

SPIKE LEE: Now, I'm not going to say that those films are going to be good, the stuff's not going to make you a better filmmaker, but it's going to give you access to the equipment. And that has always been the barrier that has kept people from moving en masse to filmmaking.

INTERVIEWER: Kind of a Marxist thing - access to the process.

SPIKE LEE: Exactly. I mean you look at music, all you have to have is a guitar and a voice - that don't cost nothing. But film, different.

INTERVIEWER: Well, do you see film could go the way music has gone - where you develop...?

SPIKE LEE: [OVERLAPPING] That's happening already now with the Internet, where, you know, a lot of people getting into their work scene, short film scene, via the Internet. And when you're a young artist, you want somebody to see your work. That is the most important thing. Somebody has to see your work, and see something that's going to make them want to take a chance on you.

INTERVIEWER: Mm-hm, I follow. What do you think would have been different had you had these tools when you were starting out?

SPIKE LEE: [CHUCKLES]

INTERVIEWER: I mean how would you career have been...? I mean you must think of this, right?

SPIKE LEE: No, I really don't. Because it just wasn't around. I mean... I just think that the people today - the young filmmakers today, I just hope they're taking advantage of the opportunities and technology that they have now, that I didn't have, or the generations before me.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

SPIKE LEE: 'Cause now you have no excuse.

INTERVIEWER: It's true. It's putting the cards on the table.

SPIKE LEE: Yeah, you have no excuse. You know, if you want to be a filmmaker, there it is.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah. Where do you see yourself going? What'd down the pike?

SPIKE LEE: I've still yet to crack television. I don't know what I would do, but that's something I...

INTERVIEWER: You mean in the sense that Hitchcock cracked television, or Stephen King tried to?

SPIKE LEE: I would just like to have a dramatic series running on TV. No sitcom.

INTERVIEWER: Of course not.

SPIKE LEE: I mean not right off the bat.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

SPIKE LEE: We've got enough of those.

INTERVIEWER: Unless it was the kind of sitcom that would punch through in a lot of ways.

SPIKE LEE: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I don't see that happening now in sitcoms. [CHUCKLES]

SPIKE LEE: But it's just very interesting that I'm going to have a film - two films opening within a couple weeks, and both shot on...

INTERVIEWER: Both shot on video.

SPIKE LEE: Both shot on video.

INTERVIEWER: Do you think it'll be the way to go continually, or would you rather...?

SPIKE LEE: [OVERLAPPING] Well, I think - I don't know how many people saw Mike [UNINTEL] film, "Timecode."

INTERVIEWER: No, I never saw that.

SPIKE LEE: I didn't see it either. you know, I want to check it out.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

SPIKE LEE: But to me, from what I heard, that was really more like an experiment, an exercise. You know, the screen is divided into fourths.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, going back to Wadley and...

SPIKE LEE: Yeah, and there's four different things...

INTERVIEWER: All going on at the same time.

SPIKE LEE: Yeah, simultaneously. You know, this is straight narrative.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I was talking with this guy up in Toronto, who'd done a film called, "Narak," - no, he'd done a film - it was after "Celebration," and he was doing "Ten Rules Protocol," and he said it's lot easier to shoot that way, because, you know, you could use available light, you can handhold the camera.

SPIKE LEE: What do you mean dogma?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah.

SPIKE LEE: I don't agree with that stuff. [CHUCKLES]

INTERVIEWER: I don't either, but I think it's an interesting - You know, in the sense that limitations draw an artist to new realms. Like a sonnet is harder to write than open verse. So the controls force you to be more creative, and imposing any controls, even these dogma arbitrary controls, can draw something out of you.

SPIKE LEE: I think that for the most part, you know - budgetary - that really forces you to be...

INTERVIEWER: [OVERLAPPING LAUGHING]

SPIKE LEE: [OVERLAPPING] You really have to be creative when you don't have any money.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, that's true.

SPIKE LEE: So why add to that?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Well, I mean at your stature you're still fighting for budget?

SPIKE LEE: Yes, but you have to realize, I don't think I'm unique. I think that except for a couple of people - Spielberg, you know, Cameron, people like that, everybody's fighting to get a film made.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. So it's still a difficult struggle.

SPIKE LEE: I mean filmmaking is a battle.

INTERVIEWER: What's the average time you spend mounting a project, from...?

SPIKE LEE: A year.

INTERVIEWER: A year? That's not bad. Some people say five.

SPIKE LEE: Yes, I've been very fortunate. I mean the only film I've tried to do that's been unsuccessful has been the Jackie Robinson project.

INTERVIEWER: Interesting.

SPIKE LEE: Everything else I wanted to do I've done so far.

INTERVIEWER: What's held you back on that one?

SPIKE LEE: Financing.

INTERVIEWER: [OVERLAPPING] The rights? Huh?

SPIKE LEE: Financing.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, really?

SPIKE LEE: Mm-hm.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, I would think that's... Well, there was one done on it. I remember...

SPIKE LEE: He was in that one - that was a long... That's a B movie, a long time ago.

INTERVIEWER: A long time ago, yeah. Well, I wish you luck on that.

SPIKE LEE: Thank you very much.

INTERVIEWER: Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

SPIKE LEE: Okay. Bye.

INTERVIEWER: Bye bye.